The Future of Healthcare: Live With Intent
For the past two decades, Thomas Reichart and Justin Tomlinson, authors of Live With Intent, have been consulting leaders in the global healthcare industry. The hosts continue to inspire and advise thought leaders and experts to think beyond their roles, functions, and companies to actively shape the future of patient-driven medicine. Subscribe and become part of creating the future of healthcare.
The Future of Healthcare: Live With Intent
Driving Healthcare´s Digital Transformation via Collaboration Enabled Health Data Access with Dr. Christian Muehlendyck (Germany)
Join us, Thomas Reichart and Justin Tomlinson, as we sit down with Dr. Christian Muehlendyck, the lead for the Scientific Partnerships of J&J MedTech in EMEA, and special guest host Dr. Wolfgang Golisch to discuss the future of healthcare through the lens of data-driven innovation.
Dr. Christian Mühlendyck is the Scientific Partnerships Lead for J&J MedTech EMEA. Within this role he is also the industry coordinator of the IHI funded IDERHA consortium.
IDERHA aims to addresses the obstacles in accessing and analyzing health data to maximize their value for patient care and medical research by building one of the first pan-European health data spaces. To enable patients and healthcare providers to benefit from innovative health solutions, it also seeks to accelerate policy developments of real-world evidence acceptance for regulatory approval and Health Technology Assessments (HTA).
His expertise in health research and digital health combined with his clinical and long leadership experience fuel this significant initiative.
For more details and to follow IDERHA:
Web: http://www.iderha.org
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/iderha/?lipi=urn%3Ali%3Apage%3Ad_flagship3_search_srp_all%3BgjBPph06TUCprghD9PG2HQ%3D%3D
Innovative Health Innitiative : IHI
So, Thomas, today we're lucky, we have a couple of guests joining us and we're looking forward to this conversation.
Thomas Reichart:For several months Actually, it's been almost a year- Absolutely, and so much has happened with Christian and Wolfgang that we have to talk to them again. The last time I saw you both, we had to snow shovel a car out of the snow. Walk on your car out of the snow. I wasn't quite sure if it was the right car. But before we go into our deep project, where did you both meet? Did you also snow shovel cars? What was the place where you both met?
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:Quite, some shuffling, but not snow. It was more sand, I would say.
Dr. Wolfgang Golisch:Yeah, actually we met many, many years ago. It was when, was it? Somewhere around 81, 82, 83. And it was actually at a beach. It was a summer camp. I was leading the summer camp and Christian was one of the kids there One or two of his siblings, I don't remember how many and that was in 82, 83, where we first met.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:Yeah, absolutely. It was a summer camp on one of the islands in the North Sea in Germany and indeed Wolfgang did lead the camp and became a very memorable leader already at that time, and then we didn't see each other anymore for 10, 12 years or something like that.
Dr. Wolfgang Golisch:But when I then later on studied medicine I came across wolfgang as one of the teachers in one of the reanimation courses and obviously that name that stuck with me, and then we reconnected from that perspective on, at that time at least yeah, and somehow we stayed connected because when, when I had christian in this resuscitation course, I remembered his name very well, but because at this time I was working as a young anesthesiologist and also in the operational theater where his father was an eye surgeon. So there was always a connection with the name and actually working together with his father was always very nice. So when you behaved well as a young resident, you got a few days with Professor Mühlendieck.
Thomas Reichart:We had quite a professorial weekend with you, an extended weekend and think tank. And, justin, I don't know about you, but listening to Christian and to Wolfgang for three solid days, from morning till nighttime, at best ski weather, when everybody else is skiing and we're inside listening to them, it exciting. It was better than a great ski day. It was like a lot of content, a lot of knowledge, a lot of experience condensed, and what I would wish for us to happen today is that we have a way of being able to transport that to our listeners yeah, and I think it's the passion that they have for for patients in the end, and their desire and their commitment to make a difference for people.
Justin Tomlinson:Maybe we should jump in a little bit to Christian, your story, and let's start with a reflection from Wolfgang around. Now that you know Christian as an adult and as a healthcare professional, what impresses you most, wolfgang?
Dr. Wolfgang Golisch:What impresses me most. Let's circle a little bit back and continue the story of what happened after I met him again as a medical student. Years passed and we did not meet at all, but a couple of years, six, seven years ago I got a note via LinkedIn Hi Wolfgang, I see you also ended up in the pharmaceutical industry, as I finally did. Let's connect. And that was again the start of a very close friendship, because I said OK, christian, let's connect and let's make something out of this connection. Usually you check the box and you are connected and linked in and you make sure that you get 500 plus connections there so that nobody knows that you have only 100 or 200, 500 plus, and that's it. We connected.
Dr. Wolfgang Golisch:I told him what I was doing and he told me what he was doing in the industry in a little bit different sector than I. He is more in medtech, I was in pharma and we discussed also how our careers develop. And then I gave him the book Live With Intent. The podcast is Live With Intent the Future of Healthcare. And what impresses me most is Christian's intention. He took that up and I would say you can call him one of your very early adopters. Christian really took this with intent, read the book with intent and planned his next steps with intent, and that's why we are here today, because he was successful by doing so. But, christian, that's my impression. What do you recall?
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:Thanks a lot, wolfgang. It was really great to meet you again that way and indeed it's one of the few real close connections via LinkedIn. But I think that's the way LinkedIn is set up Make something out of it where it's really worth it, and we have been able to take it forward. And what Wolfgang was mentioning absolutely. I mean, when we met again, I was at a really good job. I really enjoyed it.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:However, I was sort of at a leveling out. I had a great team in place, um, and what I was lacking at that time was sort of where's my next horizon, where to take it from there, which was something that I always had throughout my career, knowing where I would like to go, and that helped me a lot to have the discussions, to find my icky guy, as I would like to say it what do I like to do, what am I good at, where can I earn some money with, but, most of all, what is something where I can bring value? And that's where the connection with Wolfgang really helped sit down, have some clear, poking questions and starting to sketch down where I would like to go, and it was definitely not about a specific role, but much more about a vision about the content and the area of focus, and that has indeed helped me a lot focus, and that has indeed helped me a lot.
Justin Tomlinson:And what would you say, got you into healthcare in the first place, Christian?
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:Well, I was always drawn into healthcare. As you've just heard from Wolfgang, my family has some healthcare roots. My father was absolutely in healthcare and still is in healthcare from his passion. I grew up in a university town called Göttingen in central Germany. It's also called like the city of science. I always grew up with that kind of innovation and science mindset in my surrounding and for me, when I finished school, it was clear that science is the right way to go and for me, medicine was basically no question because it was the most pragmatic and directly impacting science that I could be thinking of and I truly enjoyed that field and could not see myself in another area to take it forward. And I think this is now the greatest time to be in medicine ever.
Justin Tomlinson:That's a big statement. Why would you say that that it's the best time ever?
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:Well, I think digitalization now can really really make a difference and, the way I look at it, we in medicine have a huge late-mover advantage in many aspects from a digitalization perspective. A lot of innovations have been done around data. I mean, if I look at my Apple Watch or at the Google Traffic Jam, kind of innovations. All of that is leveraging data for personalized information. Or if you look at your potentially available Amazon account, you get personalized recommendations. This is possible thanks to data and now we are really in the era where more and more data is available. High quality data is available that can now be used for our personal healthcare and for our personal diagnosis and treatment.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:Before, this was not possible. It was all dependent on the doctor's experience alone. Now I think there's a lot more democratization possible, a lot more excellent medicine possible to a wider population, despite the fact that treatment schemes get more and more complicated. But that information flow is actually possible and that's how I look into it and I think the way everything is developing these days, with AI et cetera, we will see enormous advantages in healthcare moving forward.
Justin Tomlinson:Thank you for expressing that so clearly. Thomas and I have talked quite often about how much we've learned from you and your way to make this digital revolution that's coming in healthcare so practical or so easy to understand, whether it be relation to the Apple Watch or Google Maps, and I think I know for me, I'm just starting to wake up to how valuable data can be to me personally, if I would pay more attention to the data that is actually at my fingertips that I've just never even thought about or paid attention to.
Thomas Reichart:Thank you for that compliment. The first boss that I used to have in publishing used to drive me crazy with a statement of hey Thomas, you should drill through bigger wood pieces, right and learning Christian what you're doing. Learning learning, uh, wolfgang, what you've helped us understand that that christian is doing. That is the biggest wood piece I've heard, uh, anybody work on. When it comes to taking a few years to get the process started. When it comes to getting over 32, if I'm right industry partners together, what made you think of drilling a hole in such a big piece of wood.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:Well, I think it's one thing if you drill the hole yourself.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:If you have a lot of people that do this together, I think it makes all the difference, and I just see myself as a small piece within all of that.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:And coming back to the horizon, basically, when the opportunity came up, when J&J took the decision to apply for an innovative health initiative funding opportunity it's a new funding from the European Union in order to drive health care in Europe and that opportunity came up in order to connect health data and make it accessible for the improvement of health care I knew, thanks to my Horizon work, this is exactly what I want, what I would like to do.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:And then I basically started with a thin piece of paper, did some sketches around it and brought more people together and they added additional pages. Or, if you take the paper, it became a big piece of wood, but everyone added a little bit of it, a little piece to it, to really make it a complete big piece of wood that then can be drilled through together, but everyone playing its own role within that one, and I think that makes things possible, and it's about connecting people, asking them, getting their input and getting their help, and currently leading this together with an amazing partner, phil Gribben from Fraunhofer Institute. The only thing we do, amazing partner Phil Gribben from Fraunhofer Institute the only thing we do we try to get the roadblocks out of the way for the teams, to enable them that they can do the different bits and pieces.
Justin Tomlinson:And maybe we should take a minute and just describe a bit what this stack of paper now is telling us. If we open it up and read the story, what are you actually doing?
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:So I've got the opportunity to lead a public-private partnership called IDERA. It's the first public-private partnership funded out of the Innovative Health Initiative. It's, as I said, a new funding opportunity from the European Union, and IDERA is not an abbreviation that we look for in terms of what kind of work doesn't exist yet, but it's an abbreviation for integrating data and evidence, which is basically the first part of it, about setting up health data infrastructure to access health data across Europe, but also driving that's what the RHA stands for regulatory and HDA acceptance of that data, because that's very much where my passion comes from. It's great to have innovation, but we all know a lot of innovation lands in the drawer, but it should be applied with patients, and so I've been working in the area of access for a long time and that was always a huge passion and importance for me me, because if it doesn't reach the patient, we might as well not do it to establish that infrastructure from a technology perspective and also from a governance perspective, that everything is secure from a data privacy aspect, and then also driving the discussions with the health authorities how can innovations driven on real world data really be acceptable for regulatory and reimbursement purposes acceptable for regulatory and reimbursement purposes, and the use cases that we are driving within those exercises are algorithms along the continuum of care of lung cancer.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:It's about earlier identification of citizens at risk that have lung cancer to get clearer who should actually be eligible for screening, and then also supporting the screening process to doing AI-supported CT analysis.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:Basically really here focusing at the very beginning, because if you look at lung cancer, the most impactful way in terms of getting the right outcome is identifying patients early.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:I mean, if you are diagnosed in stage one, your chance of getting cured is between or five-year survival rate sorry for that is between 45 and 70 plus percent, and with every stage it goes down by 50 percent till like late stage, it's really really difficult to drive any five-year survival rate.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:So that's really about driving from sick care to health care in early stage. And then what we also do is remote patient monitoring for late stage lung cancer patients too, so when they're basically at home, when they receive their immunotherapy, that then there can be remote monitoring via one of these modern digital devices so that physicians can have a continuous information how they do from their vital signs. But we also include the patients directly with interactive questionnaire so that there's a good understanding how the patients are doing and, if needed, can be called back as early as possible into the hospital, which I believe is a huge step and opportunity forward in order to personalize the healthcare, because one thing we always see is patients underestimate their complications, underestimate their own situation and being at home but still having the opportunity to stay connected. I think that's where digitalization is also another example where it can really make all difference.
Thomas Reichart:That wasn't possible without digitalization so if we look at the gotha tunnel right being dug right under the alps, 57 kilometers right through the mountains, this big open space where traffic is now possible, is that a comparison that would be sound to this open health data space that you are building in that consortium, in the public-private consortium, across Europe? I mean, aren't you wanting to enable access and integration of all these different types of data into one pipeline or one gotha tunnel, or what will the end picture be like? What will the insulation be like?
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:I think you should look at maybe not like a tunnel, but more like a street system, and you start connecting one small place with another. There's someone who would like to for example, fraunhofer would like to access to the data and it's partnering with one big hospital group and asking to have access to the data to do the analysis. So it's a small street between the two of them, but that street is built in a way we're talking technology that it's scalable and can be, can connect different people and include more and more people. So look maybe more like a spider web or street perspective, but everyone can replicate that same principle, like the internet has started, also between two or three people and now is connecting everyone, but the technical principles are the same. The technical principles are the ones that others can be using, and that's what we're trying to do. We are starting with a few partners and then aiming to expand more and more from there.
Thomas Reichart:And would it be fair to ask well, are these proprietary connections that other people can't make, and why hasn't that been done before, and is that so difficult to do? Or what would help us understand the challenges that this project is having and this initiative is having?
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:I would not really say from challenges. I would more come from the direction of technical development. I mean, what we all see is we all work more and more in the cloud environment, which means the data stays where it is, until very recently, we all brought the data into our own laptops. We wanted to buy the laptop with the biggest storage, etc. Now we're really not talking about the data lake, where basically all the data is centralized, which is the traditional approach.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:What is new now is really talking about data space.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:The data stays where it is and you only need to access the data that you really need, which also has a lot of implications from a data privacy perspective.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:So it's really new technology that can be taken forward, about developing data spaces versus data lakes, and that makes it then also much easier for the data holders, like the hospitals, to keep it in place. And I think that's also a very important aspect that I had not mentioned why such a project was actually initiated by the European Union. The biggest health policy framework that is pushed forward in the current legislation is actually to establish a European health data space connecting the health data of all citizens in Europe. So if I, as a German, break my foot, some being somewhere in Italy. The vision is that the physician that is treating me in Italy can actually access my data in Germany at some stage, so that not the same kind of treatment has to be done again or needs to understand what kind of drugs I might be using. So it's establishing that infrastructure in Europe is definitely a huge vision of the European Union, and they have basically charged us with the opportunity to build what a potential pilot and principal could look like from a technology perspective.
Justin Tomlinson:Wolfgang, I remember when you first told us about Christian, you came to us with these big eyes and you're like you won't believe what this Christian guy is doing. When it comes to integrating your perspective being the senior person in the health care system of all of us, how big of a deal is this?
Dr. Wolfgang Golisch:It's a pretty big deal. I mean it started, as Christian said, all with a sheet of paper. There was a temporary job announced at J&J who can take that on? There's an idea, there may be funds available. And then I saw it growing and I got to understand that this has a really big impact because it connects intentionally all players in the field academia, research institutions like Fraunhofer, patient organizations and various industry players, not only one. So when we always talk inside one company we need to do more about real-world data and we develop a couple of things, it stays within this company and the company may have one partner or two partners in the field, a hospital or another academic institution.
Dr. Wolfgang Golisch:This is really an initiative. As Christian said, it's a little bit like the web bringing them all together and making it happen, which was always a vision Getting the real world data really to impact medical decisions and regulatory decisions. Because I mentioned that before and I saw this growing and I was asking Michelle, take this risk? And I said, yes, you can't fail, it's a unique opportunity. I mean I know that he could not fail because I knew him also and he was doing it with intent. I mean I know that he could not fail, because I knew him also and he was doing it with intent. It's not that anybody could do that, it's certainly his contribution.
Dr. Wolfgang Golisch:And now we are seeing it, and we are seeing it happening in a very key disease area lung cancer. How many people are being affected? It's not only the smokers, people are being. How many people are being affected? It's not only the smokers and and and bringing this all together across europe and potentially the knowledge, then the ideas beyond europe, how we really get to the data. And christian, correct me if I got that, all right, but you said it the data stays where it is, so the hospital doesn't have a challenge that they can be accused.
Dr. Wolfgang Golisch:We sell the data and they are somewhere else. The data stay where they are and you can extract what you need via this algorithm. You can do your research, you can do your analysis and you can probably complement your data set for a new drug or an already approved drug and get into a new indication, or academia can do further research and develop further ideas how to better treat patients. So it comes in a tangible way together. That that what impresses me about idea, which is yeah, I know also, it just started a year ago. Christ Christian Correct Roughly a year ago. It's getting up, yeah, it's taking up speed, and it's, on the other hand, still a way to go right Absolutely and yeah, it's only because the data stays where it is.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:That doesn't mean that there are no legal implications. They're significant data holders who are just the custodian of the patient's data, that they can be sure that nothing wrong is happening with the data, so that the data will never leave the entity, but only the results, so that there's really that kind of protection. And that's where Europe has a unique opportunity. I mean, gdpr leads to a lot of hurdles. That's one thing that needs to be addressed. But Europe being able to connect data and having 400 million plus citizens where the data can ideally be accessed and connected I mean, if you look into that from a healthcare perspective and from a personalization of healthcare perspective different ethnicities, different kind of people looking at that data, looking at the analysis from different aspects that would normally not be possible I think is a huge opportunity.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:And the other part is also the healthcare provider, which is really the area where my heart still beats very much, for there's so much information these days. How can I find the right information for the patient that is sitting in front of me? And we are all benefiting from digital tools and all different areas of our daily life already. I truly believe that this will be possible in the near future as well, that, thanks to data enablement, more patients will get the better and optimal treatment for them. Not because of the incapability of the physicians quite the opposite but because of the complexity that is out there and data-enabled ability to take different aspects into consideration for the decision-making to take different aspects into consideration for the decision making.
Dr. Wolfgang Golisch:Christian, I remember you talked a lot about identifying the right stakeholders. I mean, when we talk data protection Europe, we always have always this association. The data are so well protected that by protecting the data, we harm ourselves because we don't use the data. And you mentioned during the setup of this, of this whole project, how you identified the relevant stakeholders to really make that difference. And you remember where I'm pointing to and how did you do that well from a stakeholder perspective.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:I like to compare it it again with a daily life example. When I talk about my sketch, I very much felt about building a house, and for building a house you need all different kinds of experts to do the plumbing, the electricity and whatever it might take. And that's how we have approached the project as well. And one important thing to say the Innovative Health Initiative is not the first of its kind that Europe has been driving forward and invested a billion in, but there has been the Innovative Medicines Initiative before, where similar projects have been started, so it's by far not the only project of its kind. There are many of these projects going forward.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:But we then really looked into previous projects that have been taking place. What was the key topics, what are the key obstacles? And we brought those partners in place. And one clear vision that we have within the project is trying to prevent to reinvent wherever possible, similar. Like an architect, he will not invent windows, he will buy them off the shelf but combines them in a new way, and that's how we aim to address that project and then slice it into small pieces to make it possible. That's where the lawyers came into play, because that was one thing that was very, very important. That was one thing that was very, very important, very clear from the beginning and something that I've gone through painfully in my life prior to IDRI getting access to the data. Lawyers are the enablers. You can have the greatest technical solutions. Lawyers will make it work and reimbursement will make it reach the patient.
Justin Tomlinson:Well said and, if I understand correctly, you've mentioned lung cancer a few times. This is just the first indication or the first therapeutic area that you're going into. The intention is to learn from that and continue to go broader and broader and broader with different disease areas.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:Thank you, justin. Yes, that's correct. So basically, if you look at it, it's a technical solution to get access to electronic health records and being able to evaluate the data that is, in electronic health records or in imaging data. Well, the first questions will be related to lung cancer, but once the technology is there, you can use it for any kind of disease, because the data that you will need for I don't know orthopedics or eye surgery or whatever it could be, will access the same data and will work on the same principles. So the approach is definitely completely disease agnostic. So in the end, we don't build anything but a bridge, and what you transport across that bridge is up to you.
Justin Tomlinson:And is it right that there's 32 partners? But if we take it from the pharma level, there's a handful of pharma companies that are involved. Now and once the bridge is built, the intention is that you'll continue to expand the possibilities or opportunities as broad as you can.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:Well, we are currently working on what our sustainability plan will be.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:Currently, we're working with all the pharma companies and medtech companies that have come together in order to drive it just to name Roche, as one, or Sanofi or Takeda or Philips, and as a few, to really bring this forward within the period of the funding.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:Together with the colleagues, especially from Fraunhofer, we are really looking into business models and business plans after the official European funding will be over, and here we apply the same principles as we do within the consortium being absolutely transparent and open and collaborate not only within the consortium, but we're also looking what kind of collaborations can be done with initiatives that are working on similar areas, similar fields, and how can we partner from them. Because it's not our intention to build an ivory tower, but quite the opposite intention to build an ivory tower, but quite the opposite. We just want to leverage the startup funding that we've received, basically from the European Union, to make an infrastructure possible and keep it alive. What that will look like we still need to figure out, and we are working hard on that one already since five months after the start of the project.
Justin Tomlinson:Thomas, I know a lot of your study and research and work has been around, mindset enabling, and in the think tank that we had in the winter when we were all together, one of the observations had to do with how it's not technology that's going to bottleneck this. And, christian, you mentioned the importance of the legal framework.
Thomas Reichart:Maybe you could say a few words, thomas, about mindset to bring these 30 plus different parties to the table and in order to ensure team effectiveness and ecosystem effectiveness.
Thomas Reichart:How do you build trust, not just in your own team in, in your case, right in in your own team but how do you, how do you build it across the ecosystem of all these parties, of all the different stakeholders and co-investors in this private-public relationship or consortia? How do you build trust? How do you make this workable and this will take an incredible to my understanding and how I see you operate, christian this takes a lot of abundance mentality. This takes a lot of trust. This takes a lot of turning frustrations into solutions again and again and again. Right, because it's not a quick fix, as many complex things are. The understanding I had on the mindset enabling needs are how do you not just get your own teams and your own organizations ready to collaborate, but how do you extend this effectiveness across your ecosystem? And trust seems to be the first issue. But just in our small group, I found it fascinating how long it took to understand each other, right, how long it really took to actually understand what are you solving for and what are the different partners solving for. So you know, a lot of crucial conversations coming in and a lot of dialogue and alignment necessary, a lot of language that creates reality, um and uh that with people that give you zero point how much percent of their weekly work time. That's to me like aircraft carrier management you fly in, get stuff done, fly out again right, and how can you make sure that in this crucial time you actually get the right understanding, the right results? So, in my observation, the way that you are managing an ecosystem Christian and I've said that right early on when we last met at the think tank to me you are an example of how leaders will need to manage in the future, because this type of ecosystem management is not the typical managerial effectiveness. This is how you run meetings. This is how you prepare a report. This is how you set goals. This is how you run your organization by KPRs. This is how you work with metrics.
Thomas Reichart:What we are hearing you live in and perform in Christian is a different universe. You live in and and perform in christian is a different universe. You've got a dynamic, complex or somewhat complex um consortia with people that are changing right. So then one of your partners has two or three individuals on the topic, then they change, then there's new people that need to be onboarded. Then you've got to extend that trust, get them into a. That, to me, is a different way of management than we typically do. So, um, it's not just mindset, it's uh, it's also how do you operate, how do you actually get to results? That's a different, the different game than is normally played in organizations.
Thomas Reichart:This is what's made it so hard for me to understand the depth of your assignment, christian.
Thomas Reichart:That's what's taken me three or four iterations to understand and then to appreciate the depth of the assignment that you have.
Thomas Reichart:And I think that young leaders that don't have your track record and your experience I mean, after all, you come from the city with most nobel prize winners, right?
Thomas Reichart:You've been in german automobile industry, so there's a couple things you've got going for you, right. So for those that are going to be following you and for the young leaders, how in the world would they be operating in such an ecosystem? That's what triggers me and that's what gets me thinking of what do they need to do, different than what we normally learn in organizations? And that's been a deep three-day dialogue with you, christian, and the the takeaway that I had and I'd be excited to then hear from you, christian, what what you take away was. But my takeaway was it takes a lot of patience and redesign and a lot of patience and refocus and just speaking with you that for hours and hours you know you go deeper and deeper and deeper and understanding and explaining and I felt that it's a different way than we normally manage results. It's much less operative, task focus is much more relationship focused and ecosystem focused was my impression.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:Yeah, thanks a lot. Indeed, it is very different to what I was used to within in the organization and I mean I've grown up within j&j uh for most of my career and had great opportunities there and to work on a leadership style, but also that's something very much in j&j that I've grown up with it's not about managing and leading by hierarchy but by motivation from that aspect and also these kinds of projects. It's not the only project of its kind, there are many of those and, as I mentioned before, I've got the great opportunities to have fantastic people to work with and to learn from, and especially Phil G're driven from, from fran over with very experienced leader in these kind of uh project is of fantastic help. And the team and what one thing where it starts from and I mean going back to your picture of the big of the gotha tunnel or the big uh wood to to drill through um also, an elephant can't be eaten as a piece. Slice it down into digestible bits of pieces. That's where it was great help at the beginning to really dissect it into areas where everyone can find his or her own home. So we've got different work packages to take it from there where people specialized in their areas, can really drive their own work and really focus and concentrate.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:And what we've been doing over the last year, when we all met for the first time in April, we really set up everyone in their work packages that they get to know each other, get to the forming stage and get into the performing stage. And we took it to the next level and said, okay, where's the interconnectivities between the different work packages? Get that kind of understanding and understand what is happening where, who needs to work with whom, when, where and how. And I've been driving that in a virtual, but also in a, where needed, face to face manner, face-to-face manner. And also what was an extremely positive experience we did at the end of the year, instead of doing like, okay, how, what with the year ago, et cetera, we did a pre-mortem exercise to really say, hey, let's imagine we failed, what was the reason? We are dead, that's taken, we are dead now. What is the reason?
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:And we had fantastic feedback from the different teams when they reflected on it, what could be areas of failure.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:And that feedback is now our clear guideline for this year, because everyone has brought, from their own perspective, what are areas of potential problems moving forward, because those were the ones that they identified for failures. This helps us now to move forward. So it's a lot of bottom-up feedback that we receive and, as I said before, the best thing we can do and the only thing I can do of having the honor to lead this together with Phil is trying to get the roadblocks out of the way and enabling people to take it forward. And what makes me most motivated about this I learned so much at a daily basis, and most amazing are the PhDs and those people that are coming with completely new ideas, creativity and take it forward from them and give them a secure environment that they enjoy to work with and drive something forward that is tangible and they can relate themselves to remarkable and I think it takes somebody with an abundance mindset to to have the patience and the foresight to to rally trust in such an ecosystem.
Justin Tomlinson:I think you have a big milestone coming up in april where you bring sounded like hundreds of people together to align on where you are and where you're going. Is that a closed system or is that an open system?
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:Well, it will be a hundred plus people, yeah, where we have our second annual meeting, but sustaining it, and that's actually what I'm most curious about. Right before that, we aim to have the first public forum where we invite the public patients and other public to give us feedback on our work and how they feel about it and what they believe. Does it make sense or doesn't it make sense? So that public forum will be really something I'm very, very curious about. But that's very much about pressure, testing, getting understanders what we work on. Is that something that people can relate to? Does it give value? Does it bring bring value? Where do they see principles? Because I think what we all have been experiencing I believe in our works. We all get excited and fall in love with our work and maybe forget on the outside world, and getting that first public feedback is really something I'm really looking forward to, because now we are 20% into the project, it's a great way to, of course, adjust from where we're going.
Dr. Wolfgang Golisch:Christian. I have two questions actually thinking about that, because giving concrete examples is always very helpful. So when you, is there one story during this project where you really had a difficulty and you are very happy and proud that and how you solved it? And the second question is what's the upcoming challenge? Where do you see? You said it's amortem analysis. Uh, you folks did it. So what sticks out for you there?
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:what is an advice that you can give others who listen to us here to to consider it up front yeah, starting with the second question first, I think it's communication, communication, communication I mean five years, a long time People change, and then really keeping the momentum and being able to drive the interconnection with each other and that people don't feel left on that journey. I think that's something that can happen very easily and it's not to be underestimated. That's about internal, external, I think is to making a footprint to the external environment. How our do our ambitions fit with the external environment and with other many major projects of its kind and initiatives of its kind. How can we leverage and learn from each other, because a lot has been done and is currently done in that field already, and so that we leverage each other. I think that will be super important.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:So, again, getting away from the ivory tower, much more in the network kind of thinking, and from obstacles yes, there have been some major obstacles that we needed to address, but what I saw is any kind of obstacle actually led to better outcomes, and what we've been driving very much was the sailing perspective.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:That was something that I became sort of aware for myself last year in summer, which impressed me quite a bit. I mean, sailing in the end is nothing else but having a clear vision, having a clear goal and working with a team from different fields and different roles and responsibilities to achieve that role together or ever. It's absolutely normal. That's the basis of sailing. You constantly need to course, adjust, because the wind is land on land. This is always a problem, it's always a challenge, it's always a complication. Water this is the most normal thing and, uh, that's what we've been trying to implement very much. An idea right, and I think if you take challenges as a normal thing on that journey and address it accordingly and, um, don't don't get in panic from that one, then then it's solvable, because if it's not good, it's not the end and, um, that's something that we definitely take forward and it's a spirit, a mentality that makes me move forward and I think that's that's a mentality that I believe we have so far in the team.
Dr. Wolfgang Golisch:Great advice, great advice, yeah, and congratulations to the success so far and we cross all our fingers that you make the next. You said you're 20% into the project now it's one year and that every other year you're at least another 20% and that this has really the desired impact on the European healthcare system, building by this the future of healthcare.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:Thank you, wolfgang. I think, independent from where we end, I think we have been learning a lot on that journey and that unique combination of people and that expertise and knowledge will carry itself forward in a very fruitful manner. So I think, whatever the outcome is, it will be a great success in taking it from there for everyone personally and then obviously also then from a healthcare perspective.
Justin Tomlinson:Fantastic and from our side, a big thank you, because one of the things we've been doing for the last 20 years is working with individual companies, and what you've inspired us around and also helped us with some of our thinking is to consider how what we're doing could be effective at an industry level, and so we're starting to turn our sights a bit to being an integrator at the industry level as well. So thanks for your advice and your inspiration and helping us see the value of that and why it's so important and how we could go about it.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:Thank you, happy if I was able to give a little bit back from what you've been able to give me, to give a little bit back from what you've been able to give me.
Dr. Wolfgang Golisch:Yeah, thank you, christian. As we say it in the name of Thomas. We lost the connection, so that's why we don't hear Thomas' voice anymore, and so also in his name, thank you, christian, for being with us during this podcast.
Dr. Christian Muehlendyck:And we wish you and the project all the success it deserves. Thanks for that opportunity See you next time Bye.